Kelbrook Mutual Insurance / BG-Demo – Negotiation
Callcompleted
Kelbrook Mutual Insurance · 19 Dec 2023 12:00
Negotiation of a two-year Growth order form. The CFO cannot sign without the board, wants renewal pricing and a member benefit case, and asked for a discount. The 3 Jan 2024 target close was left open.
What was said
What this says
As at Fri 9 Oct 2026Negotiation of a two-year Growth order form. The CFO cannot sign without the board, wants renewal pricing and a member benefit case, and asked for a discount. The 3 Jan 2024 target close was left open.
What happened: Tom Ashdown and Owen Tallis took the customer through the Growth order form on a two-year term. Tom said the deal value of £124k includes the one-off implementation fee, with the split to follow in the order form.
Customer view: Malcolm Hebden, the CFO, will recommend the deal but cannot decide it. He asked for the two-year cost with its base, the end-of-term price and a plain statement of what members get.
Commercial: Owen said any discount applies to the first term only and gave no number. He also said there is no break clause and that Growth service credits cover availability, not data freshness.
Watch: Nothing is signed before the board meets, so the 3 Jan 2024 target could move. Rebecca Ainsworth said she is comfortable with Growth so long as the team can see when the nightly refresh last ran.
Themes
As at Fri 9 Oct 2026Theme
Growth order form negotiation
Importance
neutral
Sentiment
mixed
Voice
decision-maker
Who was there
BG-Demo
CRMmade from
Them
CRMmade from
Follow-up
Next steps
As at Fri 9 Oct 2026- Tom Ashdown sends the revised order form, with total, base, fee split, thirty-day terms and renewal wording, by the end of the week.
- Owen Tallis and Tom reply in writing on any first-term discount and on renewal pricing wording.
- Rebecca Ainsworth and Tom draft the member case and first-months success measures for the board pack.
Risks
As at Fri 9 Oct 2026- The CFO needs the board's approval, so the 3 Jan 2024 target close may slip.
- The price after the second year was left unanswered and the CFO will flag it to the board as a risk.
- There is no break clause, and Growth credits cover availability but not data freshness.
Opportunities
As at Fri 9 Oct 2026- Member services starts first, with underwriting and claims to follow, which suits a several-team Growth tier.
- Extra users and connectors are available as add-ons if the customer outgrows Growth, without a tier jump.
Transcript
Tom AshdownHello, hello. Can you hear me alright? I've got Owen with me this time, he's just dialling in on his side.
Rebecca AinsworthYes, we can hear you fine, Tom. Good afternoon. Malcolm's here and Philip's just sat down, so I think that's all of us.
Owen TallisAfternoon, all. Sorry, I was stuck on mute. Owen Tallis, VP Sales. Tom's been telling me good things about how this has gone so far.
Malcolm HebdenGood afternoon, Owen. Malcolm Hebden. Pleased to put a face to the name.
Philip NuttallAfternoon. Philip Nuttall, procurement. I'll mostly listen today and then come in on the paperwork.- Tom AshdownBrilliant. How's everyone's week been? We're nearly at Christmas, I'm guessing it's all year-end and people wanting things signed off before they disappear.
- Rebecca AinsworthThat's about right. I had a lovely one this morning, actually. A church treasurer rang the helpline, and the person who picked up had to ask her for her policy details from scratch, and she said, quite kindly, that she'd already told us all this in the summer. Which is exactly why we're doing this.
- Tom AshdownAh, that's the one, isn't it. Let's not make them tell us twice.
- Rebecca AinsworthWell, quite. You've stolen my line.
- Owen TallisRight, so to start us off, and Malcolm, tell me if this is the wrong way round, where do we think we stand against the date? Tom has the expected close down as 3 January 2024. Is that still realistic from your side?
- Malcolm HebdenIt is a realistic target, Owen, but I would not call it a commitment. Perhaps I can ask my usual question first. What has changed since the last draft of the order form?
- Tom AshdownFair question. Not a lot on the substance, no drama. We've kept it as Growth on a two-year term. The changes since last time are mostly tidying: the connector list is now written out properly, and we've added the go-live wording so it says how quickly each connector will be live once you've given us access.
- Malcolm HebdenThank you. And the headline figure? I want to be sure we are all looking at the same base.
- Tom AshdownSo the deal value on our system is £123,600. Now, I want to be careful here, because that's the total for the deal, and it includes the one-off implementation fee. I'm not going to quote you the split from memory. I'll confirm it line by line in the order form so you can see what is the implementation and what is the subscription.
- Malcolm HebdenI appreciate that. Over the full term, please, what does that commit us to, and for how long?
- Tom AshdownTwo years of subscription from the start date in the order form, plus the implementation at the front. The implementation is a fixed fee, so it won't creep. And the subscription is paid annually in advance, unless you'd rather go quarterly, which we can do on request.
- Philip NuttallCan I just check the payment terms on that? We'd normally expect thirty days from a valid invoice, and I'd want that stated, not assumed.
- Tom AshdownThirty-day terms is our standard, Philip, so that should be fine. I'll make sure it's written in rather than leaving it to the MSA alone. Owen, shout if I've got that wrong.
- Owen TallisNo, that's right. Thirty days, and it will be in the order form. What I'd like to understand is the sequence on your side. Who signs?
- Malcolm HebdenI should be plain about that. I do not sign a multi-year commitment without the board. The board meets in the new year, and I will take this paper to them. I can recommend it, but I cannot decide on this call.
- Owen TallisUnderstood, and I'd rather you said so. Which brings me to the date. If the board sits after 3 January 2024, then that date's not hopeful, it's wrong. So what's the next dated step?
- Malcolm HebdenQuite so. Rebecca, you know the calendar better than I do.
- Rebecca AinsworthThe board paper has to go out a little before the meeting, so the papers are really the deadline, not the meeting itself. If we can get Malcolm everything he needs in the next few days, he can include it in the pack. Then it comes down to whether the board is happy to approve on the day or wants to come back with questions.
- Owen TallisThen let's work backwards from the pack. What does Malcolm need from us to put in front of them?
- Malcolm HebdenThree things, really. One, the total cost over the two years, with its base, so the board can see the number and what it is made of. Two, what happens at the end of the two years, because that is where suppliers tend to surprise us. Three, a plain statement of what members get for it. Members' money, not ours.
- Tom AshdownYeah, that's reasonable. Let me take them in turn. The first I'll sort in the order form. The third, Rebecca, I think you and I could write together, couldn't we?
- Rebecca AinsworthI'd like that. What does the member see? That's the question I'd want the board to ask, so I'll draft it from the member services side and you can check that what we say B-Viz does is what it does.
- Tom AshdownPerfect, no drama. I'll be strict about the facts.
- Malcolm HebdenOn the second point, then. What happens at the end of the two years?
- Owen TallisI'll take that one, Tom, if I may. The term ends, the subscription renews, and our customer success manager, Marcus Bell, will be in touch about ninety days before the end to talk it through. Pricing at renewal follows whatever the price book says at that point. I won't give you a number for it today, because I'd be guessing, and I'd rather not guess in front of a CFO.
- Malcolm HebdenThen I must press you a little. A board will ask whether the price after the second year is known or unknown. If it is unknown, I would like to know how unknown.
- Owen TallisFair. What I can say is that nothing in the order form should leave you open-ended. We can put a clear statement of how renewal pricing is set, and we'll give you notice in writing well ahead of the renewal. I'll take away whether we can go further than that and come back to you in writing, not on a call.
- Malcolm HebdenThat is helpful. Writing is better. Thank you.
- Philip NuttallFrom a procurement view, that's the clause I'll want to read most carefully. Anything that says price may change needs a limit or a mechanism. I can send you our standard wording if that's useful.
- Tom AshdownPlease do, Philip. Send it over and we'll see where we agree and where we don't. I'd rather see it early than find out in the last week.
- Philip NuttallI'll send it tomorrow.
- Rebecca AinsworthCan I ask something that's more about the practical side? If the board says yes, how soon do relationship managers actually see something? I've got people who are very keen and a bit sceptical, and I'd like to tell them honestly.
- Tom AshdownHonestly, it's staged. After signature we start with the connectors that matter most to you, so your CRM, the call recorder and the helpdesk, and then the rest follow. The order form puts a time on each one. Your relationship managers would start with their members' policies, claims and calls in one place, and then it grows from there.
- Rebecca AinsworthAnd underwriting and claims come in after member services?
- Tom AshdownThat's the plan we sketched, yes. Member services first, then underwriting and claims. Though I'd want Marcus to confirm the exact order with you when we do the kickoff, so I'm not promising something he can't deliver.
- Malcolm HebdenIs that the whole picture, Tom? I ask because Rebecca's team is the one who is keen. I would like to hear that underwriting and claims will be as well served, since the Growth tier is for several teams.
- Tom AshdownGood challenge. Yes, Growth is built for several teams, which is why we proposed it. There's a limit on users and connectors in the tier, and I'd want to go through your numbers against those with you, so we don't put you in a box you'd outgrow in a few months.
- Owen TallisAnd if you did outgrow it, there are add-ons for extra users and connectors, which are far cheaper than jumping a tier. I'd rather you started at the right size than overbuy now.
- Malcolm HebdenThat is a sensible position. I would not want to be sold more than we need.
- Owen TallisAgreed. Which leads me to the question I'd normally ask last, so I'll ask it now. Is there anything in the commercial side that's stopping you recommending this to the board?
- Malcolm HebdenNot stopping. There is one thing I would raise. We would like to understand whether there is any flexibility on the total, given it is a two-year commitment made in good faith.
- Owen TallisI expected that, and it's reasonable to ask. Here's where I am. Any discount we give applies to the first term only, and it has limits. It doesn't carry through to renewal, and I won't suggest it does, because that wouldn't be fair to you when the board looked at the second term. Let's not discount twice.
- Malcolm HebdenSo the figure, if reduced, would reduce in the first term only.
- Owen TallisExactly. And I'd want it labelled as exactly that in the order form, so nobody reads it later as the ongoing price.
- Malcolm HebdenI think that is honest, and I would prefer it to be stated plainly. Could you let me have a revised figure, with its base, before the board pack closes?
- Owen TallisTom and I will talk after this call. I won't give you a number now because I haven't worked out what we can do, and I'd rather not say something I then have to retract. We'll come back to you in writing.
- Tom AshdownLeave that with me. I'll have it to Malcolm and Philip by the end of the week, with the full order form, not just a figure.
- Philip NuttallThat works. I'll go through the MSA in parallel so it's not all left until the new year. Is it the standard MSA, Tom, or has anything been varied?
- Tom AshdownStandard, as it stands. If you want to vary anything, send me the changes and I'll get them in front of our legal team. Some will be straightforward, some might take a bit of back and forth.
- Philip NuttallUnderstood. The usual suspects will be liability, data protection and the exit terms. Given you're running inside our Snowflake account, the data location question is simpler, but I'll still want it written down.
- Tom AshdownYes, and that's one of the nice things about how we do it. The data stays in your Snowflake account, we don't copy it out to ours. I'll make sure that's reflected in the wording, and I'll ask our team to answer anything your security people raise.
- Rebecca AinsworthOur information security lead will have questions. Can I give them your contact details?
- Tom AshdownPlease do. Pass them on and I'll get them to the right person. The sooner the better, really, because that can be the thing that eats time.
- Malcolm HebdenBefore we run out of time, may I return to the service side? If we pay for a two-year term, what are we entitled to if the service does not perform?
- Owen TallisGood one to ask. On Growth, you get an availability commitment and a defined response time for urgent issues, and there are service credits for availability if we fall short. Tom will put the exact terms in the order form rather than me reciting them from memory. One thing I will be straight about: the credits on Growth are for availability, not for data freshness.
- Malcolm HebdenCould you say what you mean by that distinction?
- Owen TallisIf B-Viz is up but the data in it is stale, that counts as available. The tier that credits freshness is Enterprise. I'm saying it now so you don't find it in the small print and feel misled.
- Malcolm HebdenThank you. I would sooner know it now. Rebecca, is freshness a concern for your people?
- Rebecca AinsworthIt matters. A relationship manager walking into a renewal meeting with last week's picture is a problem. But the nightly refresh is the same on every tier, isn't it, Tom?
- Tom AshdownIt is. Every tier gets the nightly refresh, finished before the working day starts. What differs is whether there's a credit if we miss it. I'd say for your use it's the refresh itself that matters, and we'll show you how to see when it last ran.
- Rebecca AinsworthGood. Then I'm comfortable with Growth, so long as we can see it.
- Malcolm HebdenI am content to proceed on that basis. Now, Owen, since you are here, I would like to ask what happens if we find in the first year that it is not delivering.
- Owen TallisStraight answer: a two-year term is a two-year term. I can't promise a break clause today and I won't pretend I can. What I can promise is that on Growth there are regular reviews, so you'd have a chance to tell us it isn't working long before it becomes a problem. Marcus runs those.
- Malcolm HebdenReviews are useful but they are not a remedy. I will note that for the board as a risk, and I will say honestly that you were candid about it.
- Owen TallisThat's all I'd ask. If it helps the board, Rebecca and Tom can set out what success looks like in the first months, so there's something to measure against.
- Rebecca AinsworthI can do that. A few plain measures, like how many of my relationship managers use it before a member meeting. Nothing fancy.
- Tom AshdownLovely. Put that in the same document as the member story and the board has something concrete.
- Philip NuttallLast thing from me. For the contract file, I'll need the signatory named on your side. Is that Tom, or someone more senior?
- Owen TallisIt would be me or someone above me for anything with a negotiated term. I'll confirm who in the paperwork. Who signs on yours, Malcolm?
- Malcolm HebdenThat will follow the board's decision. I will confirm the authorised signatory to Philip once I know.
- Owen TallisGood. So to be clear on dates: nothing is signed before the board has met, and 3 January 2024 stays as the target on our side but could move. If it does, I'd rather we set a new dated step than leave it sitting there.
- Malcolm HebdenI would be glad of that. I will tell you promptly when the board date is firm.
- Tom AshdownRight, let me read back what I've got, because I'll get something wrong otherwise. I send the revised order form, with the total, its base, the split of implementation and subscription, thirty-day terms and the renewal wording, by the end of the week. Philip sends your standard clauses tomorrow. Rebecca and I draft the member case and the success measures. Malcolm takes it to the board. Have I missed anything?
- Philip NuttallI think that's it. I'd add that I'll flag any contract changes quickly so they don't pile up.
- Rebecca AinsworthAnd I'll pass your details to our information security lead today.
- Malcolm HebdenThat covers it from my side. Thank you, both of you, for being direct about the limits as well as the benefits. It makes my job easier.
- Owen TallisThanks, Malcolm. Honest pipeline, honest conversation. We'd sooner lose a week than mislead you.
- Tom AshdownLet's get something in the diary for early in the new year, so we're not waiting on an email to find out where the board has landed. Rebecca, can you find a slot with Malcolm?
- Rebecca AinsworthI'll look at it this week and send you a couple of options.
- Tom AshdownBrilliant. Thanks, everyone. Have a good few days before Christmas, and look after yourselves.
- Malcolm HebdenAnd you. Good afternoon to you all.
- Philip NuttallBye for now.
- Rebecca AinsworthSpeak soon, thanks both.
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