Kelbrook Mutual Insurance / BG-Demo – Discovery
Callcompleted
Kelbrook Mutual Insurance · 30 Oct 2023 16:00
Rebecca Ainsworth described member services lacking one view of a member. Malcolm Hebden, the CFO, wants full cost over a two-year term and said the board decides. A demo was agreed as no commitment, with the proposal to follow it.
What was said
What this says
As at Fri 9 Oct 2026Rebecca Ainsworth described member services lacking one view of a member. Malcolm Hebden, the CFO, wants full cost over a two-year term and said the board decides. A demo was agreed as no commitment, with the proposal to follow it.
What happened: Tom Ashdown ran discovery with Rebecca Ainsworth and Malcolm Hebden. Rebecca described relationship managers piecing a member together from the policy system, claims, call recordings and inboxes.
Customer view: Malcolm said he was there to listen and would not decide on the call. He wants every cost laid out, and the proposal after the demo, not before.
Commercial: Tom pointed to the Growth tier and a working deal value of £124k, stating it is the total including implementation, not an annual price. He promised the split, term and renewal position in writing, and an order form marker of Wed 3 Jan 2024.
Watch: Malcolm said he would never sign a multi-year commitment without the board. The Snowflake account is run by a small IT team, so IT and compliance sign-off is a gate. Competitors were raised but none had been spoken to in depth.
Themes
As at Fri 9 Oct 2026Theme
Discovery, member view, cost
Importance
neutral
Sentiment
positive
Voice
decision-maker
Who was there
BG-Demo
CRMmade from
Them
CRMmade from
Follow-up
Next steps
As at Fri 9 Oct 2026- Tom Ashdown to send a note confirming the demo commits the customer to nothing.
- Tom to send Rebecca the list for the demo data slice and check Marcus Bell's diary for demo dates.
- Malcolm to ask the IT lead to join a technical call.
Risks
As at Fri 9 Oct 2026- Malcolm will not commit to a multi-year term without board approval and wants the whole cost stated with its base.
- IT and compliance must be comfortable that member data stays in the customer's own Snowflake account.
- Helpline staff may be uneasy with new tools, which could slow adoption.
Opportunities
As at Fri 9 Oct 2026- Growth tier across member services, underwriting and claims, with a two-year arrangement of interest to the CFO.
- Extra users and connectors can be priced in the proposal, as Malcolm asked, leaving room to grow later.
Transcript
Tom AshdownHello, hello. Can you hear me alright? I've got the little green bar moving on my side, so I think we're recording.
Rebecca AinsworthI can hear you fine, Tom. Good afternoon. Malcolm's just dialling in, he's in the other room with the board papers, so give him a minute.- Tom AshdownNo drama, we've got all the time. How's your week been, Rebecca? Properly busy, or just normal busy?
- Rebecca AinsworthNormal busy, which is to say not very quiet. I had a lovely one on Tuesday, actually. A lady who looks after the parish hall for a village church rang the helpline. She was a bit tearful because the hall's heating had gone and she wanted to know if the gutters were covered as well. And the first thing she said was, I've told someone all this before.
- Tom AshdownAh, that's the one that gets you, isn't it. Having to say it twice.
- Rebecca AinsworthIt is. Let's not make them tell us twice, that's what I keep saying to the team. She'd spoken to claims the month before and to her relationship manager before that, and nobody on the helpline could see either conversation without ringing round. That's more or less why you're here.
Malcolm HebdenGood afternoon, both. Apologies, I was finishing something. Can you hear me?- Tom AshdownLoud and clear, Malcolm. Good afternoon. Thanks for making the time, I know the diary at this end of the year is a bit of a scrum.
- Malcolm HebdenIt is, but Rebecca was quite firm that I should be on this one. I should say at the outset that I am here to listen and to understand the shape of it. I won't be deciding anything on the call.
- Tom AshdownCompletely fair, and that's exactly how I'd like to use the time. Discovery, so mostly me asking questions and you telling me where it hurts. I'll say a bit about what we do near the end, and then we can work out whether a demo on your own data is worth anyone's time. Does that sound sensible?
- Rebecca AinsworthThat sounds right to me.
- Malcolm HebdenYes. May I ask one thing first? What would be the usual route from a call like this to an actual commitment? I would like to know what it commits us to, and for how long, before we get fond of anything.
- Tom AshdownGood question, and I'd rather you asked it now. Usual route is this call, then a demo on your data so you're not looking at a glossy sample, then a proposal in writing, then an order form under our master agreement. Nothing binds you until you've signed that last bit. I'll go through terms properly when we get there, I don't want to quote you things off the top of my head.
- Malcolm HebdenThank you. That is helpful.
- Tom AshdownRight then. Rebecca, you've told me a bit already, but could you walk me through what actually happens when a relationship manager goes to a member's renewal meeting? Start from the day before.
- Rebecca AinsworthRight. So we insure schools, churches, charities, community buildings, and every one of them is a member, we're owned by them. The relationship manager has a renewal coming up, say a primary school in the north of the county. The day before, they open the policy system and see the cover and the premium history. Then they go to the claims system and look at whether there's been anything in the year. Then they ask someone on the helpline whether the school has rung us, and that someone has to go and search the call recordings, or more often just remembers.
- Tom AshdownMm. So three places, and the third one is basically a person.
- Rebecca AinsworthBasically a person, yes. And emails are a fourth. People's inboxes. A head teacher will have written to someone about a flood last spring and that's sitting in one inbox and nowhere else.
- Tom AshdownAnd how long does that prep take, roughly? Not to the minute, just a feel.
- Rebecca AinsworthIt depends on the person. The good ones spend a good chunk of the morning on it, and honestly I think that's time we're not giving to the member. The less experienced ones skip bits, and then the meeting starts from what we think we know rather than the facts. Is that the whole picture? That's the question I want them asking themselves, and at the moment they can't answer it.
- Tom AshdownRight, that's really clear. What about underwriting and claims, are they feeling the same thing or is it mainly your side?
- Rebecca AinsworthIt's all of us, differently. Underwriting want to see claims history alongside the policy without asking for an extract. Claims want to know if the member's rung us three times this month before they ring back. Nobody has the same picture. I'd say member services feels it first, because the member's on the phone to us when it goes wrong.
- Malcolm HebdenIf I may add the finance view. We have, at present, some reconciliation work every month that is done by hand, and I suspect part of the reason is that different teams hold slightly different versions of the same member. I cannot put a number on it today and I would not want to guess.
- Tom AshdownNo, and please don't guess, we'd only be building on sand. That's useful though. So the pain is partly about the member's experience and partly about people's time and trust in the figures.
- Malcolm HebdenMembers' money, not ours. If we spend hours reconciling, it is their money being spent on it. That is how I frame it with the board.
- Tom AshdownFair enough. Can I ask about the systems themselves? You don't need to name every product, just what kind of thing they are. Policy admin, claims, the phones, email, anything else that matters?
- Rebecca AinsworthThere's the policy administration system, which is the old workhorse. A separate claims system. The call recorder on the helpline. Microsoft 365 for email and documents, and a lot of important things live in shared folders on SharePoint. And relationship managers keep their own notes in the CRM, when they remember.
- Tom AshdownHa, when they remember. Right. And is there a data warehouse anywhere, or a team who looks after data? I'm thinking about Snowflake in particular, because that's where we'd build.
- Malcolm HebdenWe do have a Snowflake account. It is used by the finance and actuarial teams for reporting, and a small team in IT looks after it. I would need to check what they would be comfortable with before saying more.
- Tom AshdownThat's the best answer you could've given me, honestly. So the way we work is we build inside your Snowflake account, not ours. Your data stays where it is, under your controls, and the brain sits on top. Your IT people stay in charge of the keys, and I'd want them in the room early rather than finding out in week six.
- Rebecca AinsworthAnd that matters for us. We're regulated, and I'd be nervous about anything where member data leaves the building.
- Tom AshdownUnderstood, and it doesn't leave. I'll leave the detail on security to when we've got the right people on a call, I'd rather someone who knows the plumbing answered that properly than me waving my arms about.
- Malcolm HebdenThat is a sensible approach. Please do bring the technical person, and I will ask our IT lead to join.
- Tom AshdownBrilliant. Now, who'd actually use it? If this existed tomorrow, who's the first person asking it a question?
- Rebecca AinsworthThe relationship managers, no question. Then the helpline team, because they'd see a member's recent calls and claims before they say hello. Then I'd hope underwriting and claims would join in once they'd seen it work. I don't want to promise their teams will adopt it, they'd have to see it for themselves.
- Tom AshdownThat's how it usually goes, one team proves it and the others come to you. What does the member see, Rebecca? Sorry, I'm borrowing your line. If it works, what's different for the person on the phone?
- Rebecca AinsworthThey don't repeat themselves. They get someone who says, I can see you rang about the hall heating last month, how did that go? That's all. It's not clever, it's just being known.
- Tom AshdownLovely. Let me do the bit about us then, quickly, and you tell me where I'm wide of the mark. So B-Viz is one layer over your CRM, calls, emails, tickets and finance data, built in your Snowflake. People ask it questions in plain English, they get pages and search and chat, and every answer points back at the source so you can check it.
- Malcolm HebdenPointing back at the source is important. Can it be wrong?
- Tom AshdownIt can be wrong if the data underneath is wrong or stale, and I'd be lying if I said otherwise. That's why it shows its sources, and why we watch how fresh each connector is. It refreshes overnight, so people start the day on yesterday's close, not last month's.
- Malcolm HebdenThank you for saying so plainly. Many suppliers do not.
- Rebecca AinsworthCan I ask about the calls? We record the helpline, and some of those calls are difficult. Someone's lost a roof or a minibus. Is it all transcribed and sitting in front of everyone?
- Tom AshdownGood one. It follows your permissions, so who sees what is something you decide with your IT team, not something we decide for you. I'd want to understand which teams should see call content and which shouldn't before we switch any of it on.
- Rebecca AinsworthGood. Because I'd start with claims and policy and add the calls once we were happy.
- Tom AshdownThat works fine. We can phase connectors, it's common. Malcolm, I can tell you're itching about the commercial side, so shall I give you the shape of it now?
- Malcolm HebdenPlease. With the base for every figure, if you would.
- Tom AshdownAlways. So you'd be looking at our Growth tier, because you've got several teams in play, not one. Growth is an annual subscription, plus a one-off fixed-fee implementation at the start. The working number we've got against this opportunity is £123,600, and I want to be careful what that is. It's the total value of the deal, so it includes the implementation as well as the subscription. It is not an annual price. I'll confirm the split in writing, because I don't trust myself quoting it from memory.
- Malcolm HebdenThank you, that is precisely the distinction I wanted. So £123,600 is the whole of the deal, the one-off element included, over whatever term is proposed?
- Tom AshdownYes, that's how I'd read it, over the term we propose. And I'd rather confirm the term and the split than let you carry a half-remembered version into your board. Leave that with me.
- Malcolm HebdenThen let me say how we think. We plan in multi-year cycles. A two-year arrangement would be of interest, since it gives predictability, but I would never sign a multi-year commitment without the board. And over the full term, please, I would want to see every cost laid out: subscription, implementation, anything that moves.
- Tom AshdownUnderstood, and a two-year view is perfectly normal for us. I'll set it out so a board paper can lift it straight off the page. Anything that could change the price during the term, you'll see it in the proposal, not in the small print.
- Malcolm HebdenGood. And what happens to price at the end of the term? I would like to know that now rather than in two years' time.
- Tom AshdownFair challenge. I'll put the renewal position in writing as well, I won't wing it on a call. What I can say is you'd have a named person on our side, Marcus Bell, who looks after customers after they go live, and he'd be the one raising renewal with you well ahead of time.
- Rebecca AinsworthWill Marcus be on the demo, or is that just you?
- Tom AshdownI'd like him there, so you meet him before you've signed anything rather than after. I'll check his diary and come back to you.
- Rebecca AinsworthI'd like that. People here care about who they're dealing with. We're a mutual, it's all relationships.
- Tom AshdownI can tell, and I like that about you. Right, a few more questions, then next steps. Malcolm, who else would need to be comfortable? The board, obviously. Anyone else?
- Malcolm HebdenOur head of IT, as discussed, and our compliance function, since we handle member data under the regulator's eye. Rebecca will be the day to day sponsor. The board would see a paper from me, and I would not want to take one forward before the proposal is firm. Our aim would be to have the decision made around the start of the new year, though I do not wish to be held to that.
- Tom AshdownNo, understood. On our side we've pencilled Wednesday 3 January 2024 as the point we'd hope to have an order form in front of you, but that's just a marker so we both plan backwards from something. It moves if you need it to.
- Malcolm HebdenA marker is fine. I will treat it as no more than that.
- Rebecca AinsworthTom, can I ask about the demo? You said on your data. What would you need from us to do that, because I don't want to hand over a mountain of member records for a first look.
- Tom AshdownAnd you shouldn't. Usually we start small. A slice of policies, claims and a few call records, with anything sensitive masked or left out, working inside your own Snowflake so it never travels. Your IT lead would agree what the slice is. I'll write it down so nobody's guessing.
- Rebecca AinsworthThat's reassuring. And how long does it take to get to the point where you can show us something real?
- Tom AshdownI'd rather give you a proper answer than a number I'd have to walk back. It depends how quickly we get access sorted, and that's mostly down to your IT team's diary. I'll come back with a plan once we've talked to them.
- Malcolm HebdenThat is acceptable. I would prefer an honest range to a confident figure.
- Tom AshdownYou'll get honest. Rebecca, one more from me. If we got this wrong, if we did the demo and it didn't land, what would the reason be?
- Rebecca AinsworthHonestly? If it was clever but the relationship managers didn't trust it. Or if it showed us half a picture and we didn't know which half. Is that the whole picture, you see. If I can't tell what's missing, I'd rather not have it.
- Tom AshdownThat's a good test and I'll build the demo around it. We'll show where the data came from and where there are gaps, not hide them.
- Malcolm HebdenMay I raise one more point? Competing options. We have not spoken to anyone else in any depth, but I would be remiss not to ask whether we should.
- Tom AshdownYou should always look around, I'd think less of you if you didn't. I'd only say, compare them on where the data lives, who holds the keys and how it deals with all your sources together, not just one. Beyond that I'll leave you to judge, I'm not going to run anyone down.
- Malcolm HebdenThank you. That is a measured answer.
- Rebecca AinsworthI'm happy to move to a demo, for what it's worth. As long as Malcolm's happy that it isn't a commitment.
- Malcolm HebdenI am content with a demonstration. It commits us to nothing and I would like that written down, if only in an email.
- Tom AshdownIt'll be in the email, in black and white. Right, let me play back what I've heard, and shout if I've got it wrong. The member experience is the heart of it: people shouldn't have to repeat themselves. The relationship managers lose time pulling the picture together from the policy system, claims, calls and inboxes. You're regulated, so the data stays in your Snowflake. And Malcolm needs the whole cost over a two-year view with every base stated, because the board decides.
- Rebecca AinsworthThat's it. You've missed nothing that I can think of.
- Malcolm HebdenOne small addition. I would want the proposal to say what changes if we need more people or more systems than first planned. Not today, but on paper.
- Tom AshdownNoted. Extra people, extra connectors, what they'd cost and when. Going in the proposal.
- Rebecca AinsworthCan I just ask about the helpline team specifically? Some of them aren't very comfortable with new tools. I'd want them to feel it was helping, not watching them.
- Tom AshdownThat's a real point, and it's a rollout thing as much as a product thing. Marcus does a lot of work with teams on that side, getting people comfortable with it. We can talk about how training would work when we get nearer. I wouldn't want to promise a plan until I've heard more about the team.
- Rebecca AinsworthThat's fair. I'd like to bring two or three of the helpline team to the demo, if that's alright. They'll tell me straight whether it makes sense.
- Tom AshdownPlease do, that's the best test going. Bring the sceptics.
- Rebecca AinsworthOh, I will.
- Malcolm HebdenBefore we close, may I ask who on your side is accountable for this from start to finish?
- Tom AshdownMe until you sign, I own the commercial side and the proposal. After that, Marcus looks after you day to day. One name each, so you always know who to ring.
- Malcolm HebdenThat is clear. Thank you.
- Tom AshdownSo, next steps, and I'll say who does what so we don't all assume. One: I send a short note today or tomorrow with what we covered, including that the demo commits you to nothing. Two: I send Rebecca a plain list of what we'd need for the demo slice, and she passes it to your head of IT. Three: Malcolm, you ask your IT lead to join a short technical call. Four: I check Marcus's diary and propose a few dates for the demo. Does that match what you remember?
- Rebecca AinsworthYes. I'll speak to our head of IT this week and tell him roughly what's coming. He'll want to know it's inside our own Snowflake before he says anything else.
- Malcolm HebdenAnd I will ask for a time on his diary. May I suggest that the proposal follows the demo, not precedes it? I would prefer to see the thing before I read the price.
- Tom AshdownSuits me. Demo first, proposal after, and the proposal will carry the whole cost over the full term with the base for every figure, as you asked.
- Malcolm HebdenExcellent.
- Rebecca AinsworthTom, thank you for not pitching at us. I was braced for a long deck.
- Tom AshdownHa, there's a deck somewhere, I just didn't want to subject you to it. Lots of chat is better. If you think of anything between now and the demo, just email me, no need to save it up.
- Rebecca AinsworthI will. Actually, one thing now, and then I'll stop. The parish hall lady I mentioned. If your system had been in place, would she have been looked after any better?
- Tom AshdownI can't say what would have happened for her, and I'd not want to claim it. What I can say is the person who picked up the phone would have seen her last conversations before saying hello. What they did with that is down to your people, and from what I've heard today they'd do something decent with it.
- Rebecca AinsworthThat's an honest answer. Thank you.
- Malcolm HebdenIf there is nothing further, I shall return to my papers. Thank you, Tom, for the candour, particularly on the figure and what it contains.
- Tom AshdownAny time, Malcolm. I'll get that note out, and I'll make sure the numbers in it are ones I've checked, not ones I've remembered.
- Rebecca AinsworthSpeak soon then, Tom. Have a good rest of the week.
- Tom AshdownAnd you, both. Cheers now, take care. Let's get something in the diary.
- Malcolm HebdenGoodbye.
- Rebecca AinsworthBye, both.
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